GAAP Chats: Debating the 150-hour rule for CPAs
GAAP Chats episode 9 accounting

GAAP Chats: Debating the 150-hour rule for CPAs

In Episode #9 of GAAP Chats, hosts Mike Walworth and Chris Brundrett discuss the 150-hour education requirement for CPAs. This comes as states are considering reducing the requirement to address the shortage of accountants entering the profession. Please note that the following content is not a full transcript of the episode. For the full audio version, listen here: GAAP Chats Podcast

Mike: 150. The Ford F 150 is the best selling truck in America. Commonly referred to as Dunbar's number, 150 has been proven to be the maximum amount of relationships that any one person can sustain. Psalm 150 is the last numbered Psalm in the Bible and considered the one most often set to music. But today we're talking about 150 because it is the educational requirement to become a licensed CPA in all 50 states. But some states are considering reducing the 150 hour requirement as a way to solve the shortage of accountants entering the workforce. Join Chris and I as we take a trip back to college and debate this requirement and why less young people are entering the profession. 

Welcome to GAAP Chats, the podcast dedicated to all things accounting brought to you by GAAP Dynamics. I'm your host, Mike Walworth, and with me, as always, is my faithful partner, Chris Brundrett. We hope you'll join us on our journey today as we share our passion for accounting and help change the way you train. Chris That was a very nice email we got last night, wasn't it?

Chris: It certainly was. So, this is our 9th episode and  Mike and I have really been enjoying doing these episodes, but we weren't really sure how it was being received out there. It was really nice to get an email with some feedback from one of our listeners.

Mike: Yeah, first of all, it's nice to know that people we know are listening. Chris and I are kind of doing this in a vacuum, talking to each other. And this email was from a friend of GAAP Dynamics. We had worked with her at different occasions throughout the last 20 years, and she's gone on to do great things. But anyway, she wrote to us and just said, Thank you for the podcast. She found it funny, she found it informative, and she basically said she was recommending it to all her accounting friends. First of all, the email itself, very nice. It's always nice to know that something you're doing, especially when you don't have to do it, is appreciated. So, thank you very much for that. And then also just to know that it's being well received. So, if you are liking this podcast, I'd encourage you to maybe invite others to come listen to it. As always, if you have any thoughts or ideas about topics you'd like to cover, I guess Chris and I are all ears, aren't we, Chris?

Chris: Absolutely. Well, let's get on to the topic at hand for today, and that is the 150-hour rule, as you mentioned in the introduction. So, before we get into the specifics of it and what's going on, let's take a step back here for a minute. So, you know, we've got GAAP Dynamics, a relatively small company, but amongst all of us, we've got quite a number of children and some of them are starting to think about college and careers and majors and all that stuff. So, Mike, out of collectively, how many do you think are going into accounting?

Mike: Well, I did a poll and I asked the parents who work for us, there's probably about ten kids. There are more than ten kids at GAAP Dynamics, but there's about ten kids that are thinking about college, right? They’re in high school or they're thinking about college in some way. I would say that only one, Chris.

Chris: Only one? Well, that's interesting.

Mike: Yeah, and actually it’s my son. He's probably the oldest kid at GAAP Dynamics, and he's actually in college now. When he kind of had to declare a major….

Chris: You told him accounting or nothing?

Mike: Well, I did not say that. I mean, he's heard the story of my dad who, when I asked him what I should major in, he told me it's either accounting or nursing because that's where the jobs are. He heard that story. But, I asked him, why did you pick it, son? And he said, well, you seem to have a pretty good life. So yeah. I said, you’re just copying my life, then? That's fine. But either way I'm adding one to the population. But Chris, I've been doing some reading and evidently there's an issue with the number of CPAs entering the profession.

Chris: There definitely is. And this has been going on for quite a number of years. I mean, this predates the pandemic and the “war on talent” and all that kind of stuff, but it certainly hasn't gotten any better. I think, what sort of started it early on, particularly going into just traditional accounting, financial accounting, and tax accounting. There was definitely a shortage there because there was a lot of opportunity in accounting information systems and things like that. Advisory-type of work drew a lot of people away from the traditional accounting roles. That's kind of the early part of this issue that arose. Now there really is just a shortage overall in the CPA profession, and it's getting to be a real issue for firms to recruit.

Mike: Why do you think that is, Chris? I mean in your opinion, why do you think there's a shortage of accountants entering the profession?

Chris: I think some of it is just shifts in the interest of the generations. I mean, perception might be one consideration  where you have a lot more, you know, appeal of high tech jobs and things like that, and accounting is maybe seen as kind of old and traditional while we know that's not so. There is a lot of use of technology in accounting, which will continue in the future. I think there might be some of that, really a marketing issue. But, certainly, one of the considerations is that there is a bit of a barrier to entry because of this “150-hour rule” and the fact that to be a CPA, you have to sit for what arguably is one of the hardest professional exams out there. I had the opportunity many years ago to work with a partner at a Big 4 firm, and he actually was one of the few people who had sat for the bar and the CPA exam. He actually said he thought the CPA exam was a little harder. No offense to any lawyers that are out there, but this is a very challenging exam. I think maybe the combination of this 150-hour rule, which we're getting into, and the fact that you have this professional exam might be a bit of a deterrent. I mean, that's just one thought.

Mike: Well, let me ask you another follow up question. Why did you become an accountant?

Chris: I will date myself a little bit to say that I did predate the 150-hour rule. But, I'll tell you how I became an accountant. It's not the most exciting story in the world, but I started out in college majoring in something entirely different, and wasn't even in the College of Business. As I got into my sophomore year and started taking some of the higher level classes, you know, physics, analytical chemistry, things like that, I realized that maybe this wasn't quite the place for me. I actually said, you know, I'm going to see what the business school is all about. When I first went into the Business school, I thought that I wanted to manage things. That's what you think of when you think of business. I want to manage things. I thought about doing management, you know, so I sort of was thinking about that. But, I had to take Principles of Accounting and I really liked it. I thought it was interesting, and did pretty well at it. I looked around, you know, everybody had to take principles, whether you're a marketing major or what have you.  I looked around and there were a lot of people who struggled with that class and really hated it. I said, Well, if I liked it and I'm pretty good at it, maybe I should be an accountant. Here we are all these years later. That's probably not a traditional story of how you wind up in it. But, marketing issues, professional requirements,  I think there's a lot of considerations about why this is happening. But, the bottom line is, you know, people are looking at it and saying, “we've got to do something about this because there is a lack of talent in this profession.”  We really have a shortage of people. In regards to the 150-hour rule, I think we should probably take a step back and talk a little bit about that. Then we can talk about some of the focus on that as of late with this war on talent.

Mike: Yeah, I agree. First,  I want to circle back a little bit because I want to tell you why I did. My dad was like “accounting or nursing”. So I went into accounting and I was like, “Do I want a career here?” I was looking at the Big 4. You and I both went to the big four. But, you know, I looked at the role of a Big 4 partner and what he or she did. I thought, “that ain't a bad life, man.” I graduated in 1993,  and at that time in the Big 4 the partner track was probably around 8 to 10 years. So, I was 22 years old and thinking that sometime between 30 and 32, I'm going to be a partner at a Big 6 firm. I looked at the life of a partner and man, it wasn't a bad life, right? I mean, I remember one of the guys that you and I used to work for, I mean, he used to brag about having two houses on River Road. I always thought that was funny. One was for his ex-wife, one was for his current wife. But, it was a pretty good lifestyle. I mean, they were members of country clubs. You think about in my young 30s, I mean, I'm making decent money and then by 40, I'm an equity partner and making really, really good money.

Chris: You may have uncovered another issue with  lack of people entering the profession. The partner track at firms, the Big 4 included, has gotten much, much longer. I mean it’s now 12 years, 15 years, or maybe never. So, that's become an issue because really the starting salaries aren't maybe all that attractive. I mean, they're good, but there are other opportunities out there with better starting salaries. It used to be well, okay, but in a few years, you're going to be really set. Now, that time frame is getting longer.

Mike: That carrot is further and further away. And there's other professions, quite honestly, that can get you to that carrot a lot sooner.

Chris: Right, and when you are in your early 20’s, it's hard to see a carrot that's really far away. Right? So, yeah, there's a lot of considerations about this.

Mike: So because of this lack of people entering the profession, some states have offered solutions. One of the solutions, and we'll talk about Minnesota reducing the 150-hour rule, but some have actually floated the idea of making the CPA exam easier.

Chris: Yeah, I've heard that too. I  totally understand whatever side you're on, whether you agree or disagree with making these changes, this is coming from the commissioners and the board members of the state societies.  They are responsible for recruiting CPAs and keeping the professional alive in their various states. They're seeing this issue with a lack of people entering the profession. They're hearing from their constituents that they aren't able to hire enough people and they're trying to think of ways that they can fix the problem. For the state boards, this is the one thing that they do have within their control potentially, to deal with the exam and the number of hours that's required to sit for a license. That is something that's well within their control where they could have an actionable result. I certainly understand why they're looking at it. I think it'll be interesting to see what the greater audience thinks about this. 

Mike: Let’s take a step back and level set. The 150 hour requirement, meaning 150 semester hours of education, okay? All 50 states have it now. I think only the US Virgin Islands doesn't require it. But as Chris and I said, both of us came out of college, and I actually graduated from University of Florida, and Florida was the first state to have the 150-hour rule. It was actually back in 1983. So, Florida was the first out the gate. Virginia's requirement went into effect a little later, 2006. 

So here is what it says on the AICPA’s website: 

To obtain the required body of knowledge and to develop the skills and abilities needed to be successful CPAs, students should complete 150 semester hours of education. 

So that's what we're talking about here, Chris,  this 150 hour education requirement. To be a CPA in Virginia, you need 150 hours, semester hours. I think you need to work now for a year. When we came out of college, it was two years because we only had to have 120 hours. Then you need to pass the CPA exam,  and then you need to pass an ethics exam. Once you've done all that, then you become what's called a licensed CPA. In Virginia, and in most states, you can maybe sit for the CPA after 120 hours, right? But to be licensed, you need that 150 hours. Now, I kind of looked back, and you, me, and Bob, we predated 150 hours. We're old fogies.

Chris: We were grandfathered in, right?

Mike: Yes, and so I talked with the people [within GAAP Dynamics]  that are younger that graduated with the 150 hour requirement.  I talked to Jenny, Vicky and Rachel. All of them graduated from their respective universities when the 150-hour rule was in place. What's interesting is most of them only went to school for four years, right? Their parents, and I can appreciate this because I have two kids in college myself, but their parents basically said, “you have four years to finish.”  What I noticed from all Jenny, Rachel and Vicky is, is that they all basically took a buttload of courses each semester. You know, just to kind of give you the math, 150 hours is 15 credits every semester for five years. Well, I don't know about you, Chris. What was the maximum number of courses you ever took at Virginia Tech? Well, in a given semester? 

Chris: 18, and that was rough 15 was kind of the, you know, the middle ground. I mean, 12 was the sweet spot, but 15 was kind of the middle ground. But I did do 18 a few times and that was really tough. And if I recall, don't quote me on this, but I think Virginia Tech wouldn't let you take more than 18. Yeah, So that was it.

Mike: What's interesting, Vicky actually said to get through like she had to take some semesters, which was 18 plus and that had to be with approval from the dean.

Chris: Yeah, that's the way it was at Virginia Tech as well.

Mike: All I know is when I went to school, the 12 hours, like if I took 12, that was like the minimum to be a full time. Like those semesters were pretty easy to me. I did pretty well. But when I started to go up to 15 and even more, that was hard. I did take a summer school. I came in with like six credits. But all of these avenues take some time. We're talking here about real money. And it was interesting, I was talking to one of our colleagues about my son, because my son's going into accounting and, you know, we're debating what he should do. I mean, do I want to load him up with all these extra classes, you know, 15, 18 a year? He came in with six, I think from AP courses, maybe nine. But that still means that he has to, you know, to get it done in four years, he really has to spend a lot of money. Just to let you know, I mean, in state Virginia, all in, it is about $25,000 to $35,000 a year, depending on the university. So, here's like $25,000 a year. So,  if he goes an extra fifth year, you know, that's real money. That's $25,000 to $35,000. That's real money.  Chris, let me ask you a question. Do you know this? What percentage of kids in America come out with student debt?

Chris: I don't know the percentage, but I imagine it's quite high.

Mike: Yeah, numbers vary. It's above 50% by any stretch. So yeah, over half of American kids are coming out with debt and the average debt per borrower is $30,000. Now those are four year degrees. So now we're talking about the fifth year they're going for more, right? Now that they may be $50,000 in debt. That’s real money. Now, Chris alluded to this earlier, but what is the starting salary? I mean, do accountants get paid any more for that 150 hours? Now, the firms will probably say it's baked in or whatever, but in reality, I don't think they do because it's not like you're requiring a master's. You're just requiring 150 education hours. It's interesting, the other ladies that I asked about, you know, how they got it, they took extra hours. Some of the courses they took were taekwondo, jazz dance, and event planning. I guess my point is I don't think that this 150 hours is in accounting or business or anything. It's just a tick the box, dude.

Chris: Well, you've hit you've hit a couple of things I think that are that are important about this. I mean, the rule came about because there was the desire to sort of elevate the profession, right? I mean, it was already elevated, but this is, you know, higher education elevates the profession. But what's interesting about it, it's 150 hours. As you said, this is not a Master. Now, you could get a Masters and get your 150 hours, but you aren't required to get a Masters, so there's no extra degree. Hence your comment about pay. In most states, if not all, don't quote me on this, but in most states you can take whatever you want to get those 150 hours. 

Mike: Most states have you have to take a certain number of accounting, a certain number of business. But the extra to get above it doesn't have to be in anything.

Chris: You just gotta have 150 hours. So, you know, alot of people, I'm sure, take additional accounting classes. I’m sure the accounting departments at various universities have added classes since the 150 hour requirement came about so that people could fill out, you know, a fifth year.  But still,  there is debate about the value of it. I think what we're getting to is a lot of cost for what benefit? I think that obviously depends on what classes are being taken. 

Mike: Now you're doing something, I'm going to take a little detour. I hope you don't mind this, but I want to talk a little bit about what you're doing at Virginia Tech. Chris is working in conjunction with his alma mater, and can you tell us a little bit about that? Because that sounds like a pretty cool class for these fifth years to take.

Chris: It's a really neat class and, you know, it's mostly fifth years. Some people that are in their senior year. It’s an accounting research class. They do various different projects in different disciplines, you know, straight accounting, audit, and IT and things like that. But they're really learning how to research. They're learning how to then write memos to clients, to the files and  things like that. concluding on the research, and doing presentations. So the part I worked on with them was the straight accounting research. We did a pretty cool case study and the group's got various different topics and questions and scenarios, and they went out and researched and did a presentation, did memos to a client stating their position on these various issues. So it is a pretty neat class. 

Mike: They actually used our e-learning right to help with the initial sort of understanding of the topic. This is the second year you've done it, isn't it? Do you like it?

Chris: Oh, I love it. It's really neat to get back into the classroom in the university setting and see these presentations. I mean, all of the groups just did presentations yesterday, all the groups did a phenomenal job with their research, with their conclusions, and with their presentations. So it was pretty neat. That's an example of a class that didn't exist when I was there prior to the 150-hour rule. So, you do get some cool stuff that you could [benefit from].

Mike: If there's anyone listening from the University of Florida Accounting Department,  or Penn State where Jenny went, or U of R, where Bob and Vicky went, or West Virginia University  where Rachel went, I think you'd have willing alumni wanting to come back. So anyway, good. Thanks for thanks for that. 

Mike: So, back to some of the costs, because this is real money we're talking about, firms have stepped it up a little bit. Even back when Vicky graduated, PwC was her alma mater. She actually took some summer courses and PwC paid for them to help her get to her 150 hours, not all 30 extra hours but some of them. I have read about Ernst and Young having an agreement with a local University whereby there's a portion of that extra 30 that is online and then a portion that is in person. So I imagine Chris, like a lot of these Big 4 firms have summer training events at these big hotels, and I think part of that is these extra hours. Firms realize this, that it does cost real money and are looking, you know, to help out with to defray the extra cost.

Chris: I think that's great but the problem is it's not really widespread across the profession. I mean, an awful lot of people go to smaller firms or they're going into corporate or things like that. That's why this has been sort of looked at as maybe one of the barriers to entry that's causing this issue with talent. As I mentioned earlier, a state board of accountancy or a state society may be looking at ways to increase the interest in the profession. There's been a lot of focus on this 150-hour rule. As you mentioned, there's also been focus on lowering the standards on the CPA exam. I don't think that's gotten a whole lot of traction. But certainly taking it back to 120 versus 150 has gained a lot of traction. We've actually had one state, Minnesota, that's really put forth a proposal to lower the 150 down to 120.

Mike: So this is hot off the press. It literally just came out in the last couple of days. This is the reason why we're doing this topic today. But the headline says, Minnesota proposes alternatives to the 150-hour rule. 

The proposed legislation would create three routes to licensing, all of which would require passing the CPA exam. So they're still going to require the CPA exam. Here's the three tracks: 

  1. 150 credit hours and one year of work experience. That's the current model. 
  2. 120 credits and two years of work experience. (By the way, that's what Virginia had when Chris and I graduated.)
  3. 120 credits and both one year of work experience and 120 CPE credits earned concurrently. 

So basically what you can say is instead of that other year of work, you're just jamming it with CPE. And so and again, the move comes amid growing concerns about the dwindling pipeline of young people entering the accounting profession and becoming CPAs. Like you say, Chris, this is real life, making it more difficult for firms to fill engagements and develop their next generation of partners. So, Chris, I know you've done a bit of research. What is the AICPA/NASBA response to Minnesota? What do they think about it?

Chris: There is a big problem with this proposal from Minnesota. Whether you agree with 120 hours versus 150 or not, there is an issue. The Journal of Accountancy last month interviewed the president and CEO of NASBA. You can find the Journal article online. It was in February of 2023 to talk about this issue because this has been floated around in a lot of boards, not just Minnesota. They talked specifically about Minnesota. But the issue is this because all the states have the same 150-hour rule right now, you can float from state to state right now. You’ve passed the exam, you've met all the requirements and you can float from state to state. Now, every state has some little thing like ethics requirements or things like that that you might have to take, but you can get licensed in other states pretty easily. People move with the firm they're with. People have to work in multiple states, so they get licensed in multiple states. The big warning that the NASBA CEO put out was if a state deviates and lowers down to 120, any CPA that goes down that route, they're pigeonholed and they can't work outside of that state because they haven't met the requirements in the other states. So this either has to go across the board, in my mind or not at all. That's a real problem. I mean, that would be like getting your driver's license in the state of Minnesota and you can't drive anywhere else in the United States. That's an issue.

Mike: That's right and what Chris was talking about, floating from state to state, I think the technical term is reciprocity.

Chris: Yes, I like floating. 

Mike: Floating is better. But anyway, yeah. I've got this one of these letters and basically what they're saying is if Minnesota enacts legislation that does not comply with these requirements, the 150 hours and one at least one year of experience, Minnesota will lose its equivalency status. Should this occur, you know, there's a bunch of impacts.  So, that’s interesting. It’s the first one that's floated. First of all, in my opinion, lowering the standards of the CPA exam, I think that's a bad, bad idea, right?

Chris: I mean, that's just going to lower the respect of the profession, I guess, for lack of a better term.

Mike: And while it is, if I might be frank, while it is already reeling with some known audit failures, go back to Enron and WorldCom, so the audit profession is kind of in this crossroads. I think lowering the standards for the CPA is not a good idea because it'll just cheapen it.

Chris: So again, I think that's why people are focused on this hour rule.

Mike: Okay, so let’s figure it out. Like, what would you do if you're the head of a state society or you're the head of the AICPA or the NASBA, what is Chris Brundrett's solution to the accounting profession's problem of lack of pipeline?

Chris: All right. Well, I'll float a couple of ideas out there. One idea would be to go sort of down the path of Minnesota. I think what they're proposing now is that you have different paths, as you said. So, I could go the 150 hour path with the one year, work requirement, and then I do have reciprocity across all the or equivalency across all the states. So, I can get licensed in other states. Or I could select the 120 hour option. Then I am only able to be licensed in Minnesota. That might be one option that states could pursue, but I see an issue with that because I don't know that a college student is really going to really understand how all that works and what it means in the long run. 

Plus, you don't know what's going to happen later in life. Can you imagine having to go back and get 30 more hours just because you want to move out of state and still be a CPA. That’s not a good option. Other things that are floated that we've talked about, Mike, would be just to lower it back down to 120, increase the service requirement, that you've got to work for for a little bit longer of a period of time before you get your CPA license. That would be sort of like an apprenticeship kind of model.  So, you're getting your hours in college and then you've got a certain amount of work requirement and maybe even layering in a professional endorsement in order to be able to sit for the CPA exam. Not only have you worked for a few years, but somebody says, yes, they've learned on the job. So, some sort of an apprenticeship would be an idea as well.

Mike: Yeah.I think all those are decent ideas. I think the 150-hour rule is just for 150 hours seems, in my opinion, stupid. Right? Because you have people taking classes like jazz hands 101 or Taekwondo 1 and 2 . Now if you're going to require real life stuff , and I'm talking about data analytics or, you know, looking at big data or, going the route of how to uncover fraud, that’s a different story. The profession needs to work with the universities because we constantly hear that the kids coming out of college do not have the skills and the course load in the topics that are necessary for the 21st century auditor at accounting firms. I mean, is that true?

Chris: Yeah, I've I've definitely heard that and there's been a lot of concern over that. I think maybe what we're coming to, you know, for our conclusion, for what it's worth, I mean, we're saying, look, either get rid of the 150-hour rule, or keep the 150-hour rule, but make it count.

Mike: And if we're going to make it count, you need to pay these people more. I'm going to end with this antidote. Starting salaries vary depending on your area. Generally in our area, Virginia was probably, let's say around 60 grand, maybe a little less than 60 grand, maybe a little more starting salary out of school. Remember, you're requiring these guys to have 150 hours

Someone who interned with us went to the same school my son goes to and  graduated with a computer science degree. What do you think was their starting salary in Northern Virginia? 

Chris: $80,000.

Mike: Close I think it was $82,000 because Northern Virginia but still $82,000. Another buddy of mine’s daughter graduated with a degree in health science with a starting salary of $65,000. So more than the accountants. And like I said, if you take Mike Walworth, the young buck Mike Walworth at 22 years old, part of it was that my starting salary at a Big 4 was a decent start. Like, it was good. It was like one of the better ones of my friends. I had this carrot that was dangling there for me that in 10 years,  I just sucked it up and worked the 70 hour weeks and did this. I too would have two houses on River Road, and probably a divorce, but at least it was there. The problem is, I don't know that they're paying these kids enough to get the 150 hours. 

Chris: So, you combine extra school requirements, lower starting salary, and the longer road to the carrot and it becomes unappealing.

Mike: And you still have a busy season.

Chris: Something has to be done to deal with this. Again, my closing is I absolutely appreciate that the state boards are looking at possible ways to deal with this issue. I think that's great. I do think this is going to have to be collective across the board or else you end up with all kinds of issues with different requirements at different states and not being able to freely move around and be licensed anywhere you want.

 Mike: Chris, in closing, what would you recommend I tell my son?

Chris: Well, of course, stick with accounting. It's the greatest profession there is. Take the 150 hours. Even if Virginia has some other path, do the 150 hours, but take real courses. Those classes count.

Mike: That's what I'm telling them. I'm saying, listen, son, go into data analytics. Maybe go into other business courses, right? That's fine too, like marketing or management. I mean, all of those things will be good, but just don't take underwater basket weaving. Don’t waste mom and dad's money like that. And again, apologies for any underwater basket weaving majors out there. Chris, why don't you take us out?

Chris: All right. Well, thank you, Mike. That's all for this episode of GAAP Chats, your source for all things accounting. Notes and resources from today's episode are linked in the description. And as always, you can find us online at and @GAAPDynamics across social media. It's never too late to become a GAAPologist. Head over to our website and subscribe to our blog so that you're the first to know what's new with GAAP Dynamics.

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